Interesting Exchange About Winning at Poker

The house doesn't beat the player. It just gives him the opportunity to beat himself.

-Nick Dandalos

I read several poker blogs on a daily basis, and one of them is by Bob Rotruck, aka MicroBob from the 2+2 forums, located here. He had a post today that I felt the urge to reply to, not because of his position, but because of the position of the person who he's having the disagreement with.

Here's Bob's post:

Certified Moron Status!!

That's how someone described the latest little exchange with 'online gambling expert' Stephen Katz regarding his claims that internet-poker is not beatable.

Somebody on 2+2 wrote to him and got a reply:

Basically, if somebody doesn't want to spend $2,000 of their own money (as well as time) to prove to HIM something that THEY already know they are successfully doing for income then he refuses to believe it exists.

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After reading that little note, I send an e-mail to him. Very polite, not disaggreeing with his goals, just telling him he was wrong. Got a response the very next day, kinda funny and pathetic. Here is my e-mail and his response:

Just read a short article by Mr. Katz re online poker.

Unfortunately, Mr. Katz doesn't know what he is talking about. There are plenty of good reasons not to gamble. Gambling destroys thousands of lives and negatively influences the lives of millions more. However, making things up and/or lying about certain types of gambling is, in my opinion, counter productive to the cause of gambling prevention.

What Mr. Katz's piece offers is an incentive for people to find out more about online poker. Why? Because it is so obviously wrong. How do I know it's wrong? I support my family by playing online poker, and have done so for several years, as do many of my aquaintances.

Look, you can't just go around saying "you can't beat the rake!". Whether or not the rake can be beaten depends on the size of the rake relative to the game, and your skill relative to the other players in it. No matter how noble your motives, the ends don't justify the means, and in these case the means are counter productive to the desired end.

Just thought you should know


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Some of your comments are good and that is appreciated.

But unless you PROVE your claims of winning, anyone stating that they are winning money in the long-run playing online poker, is only a rumor. Don't take it personal - I say that to EVERYONE.

You probably realize that gambling income is taxable and so you have paid taxes on the money. So simply do the following. Post in a public forum, not to me because anyone can photoshop items, do it in a public forum whereby everyone can see it including the IRS which also canvases the internet looking for tax cheats. No one should ever publicly post a false tax return. To the best of my knowledge this is a federal offense.

So...post copies of your last years federal tax return. Post two years since you said "several years." Also post copies of your credit card transactions and documentation from the gambling websites regarding deposits and withdrawals. Before posting though, take all this documentation to a very reputable accounting firm and have all the information audited. They will matchup the documentation with your bank statements, etc. And also post a signed letter from this accounting firm regarding the audit and the accuracy of your documentation. Since you've been paying your taxes and have filed and previously calculated all these figures anyway, this should all be quite easy for you to quickly hand over to the accounting firm. The audit will probably cost you around $2,000 but since you are making all this money playing online poker, a couple thousand bucks should be peanuts to you.

Everyone who I have asked to do this has refused despite the simplicity. If you want to do it...fine, e-mail me back with the public website info after it is posted and of course I'll take a look at it. If you don't want to do it...fine, but the article stands as fact. We both know that there is not any formula for "proving" that online poker can be beat. The best hand doesn't always win - it can be bluffed out. So again...the only way to prove claims of winning money would be showing documented and audited proof of this income. You made the claims, so prove it!

Best Regards,

Steve

And here's my comment:

That's nuts. Saying that you can't make money playing online poker because you can't beat the rake is like saying Best Buy can't make money because they can't beat the electric bill! It's a cost of doing business, and it's certainly beatable.

However, arguing with a fool is pointless. Although, I will say that from his response, it looks like he knows the fallacy of his argument, and is trying to make it unnecessarily difficult and expensive for anyone to prove him wrong.

I fall into the social conservative group, but I do play poker. I play blackjack when I have the advantage (i.e., a bonus is involved), and I have the occasional drink. I believe in moderation in things, so I don't drink to excess, and I don't gamble where there is a large house advantage.

I consider poker a game of skill, not gambling. There is some luck involved, but that goes for golf, tennis, baseball, football, hockey, Scrabble, Monopoly and Tiddlywinks. But what separates poker from the rest of the casino games is that you are not playing against the house. You are pitting your skill against the skill of the other players. The rake is simply "rent for the space" to play.

I would say that I hope he comes around, but that'll never happen. He has his agenda, and even if someone were to provide the proof he asks, the very next words out of his mouth would be "That's an anomoly. One person winning doesn't prove anything." Sadly, it's blowhards like this that will end up getting the attention.

Perhaps it's time to form a lobbying group to look out for our interests.